Aug 11, 2022
Andrew Joyner is the Managing Director at Tricon Residential and head of their Canadian apartment platform, tasked with trying to create thousands of brand-new apartment units in the Greater Toronto Area. Andrew is responsible for all aspects of day-to-day platform activities, including setting strategic direction and sourcing investment opportunities, as well as overseeing dedicated teams responsible for business plan execution: development and construction, asset management and operations. In addition, Mr. Joyner manages senior relationships with joint-venture partners.
In this episode we talked about:
* Andrew’s Bio & Background
* View on Multifamily Housing Market
* GP vs LP Structure
* Rent Stabilization Policy
* Interest Rates Impact on Andrew’s Investment Decisions
* View on Zoning
* Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned
Useful links:
Book “The New Kings of New York” by Adam Piore
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-joyner-cfa-149ba124/?originalSubdomain=ca
https://triconresidential.com/
https://www.instagram.com/triconresidential.home/?hl=en
Transcription:
Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name's Jessica galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jess Fraga, you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. My special guest today is Andrew joiner. Andrew is the managing director at Tricon residential and head of their Canadian apartment platform tasked with creating thousands of brand new apartment units in the greater Toronto area.
We were just chatting before the show and correct me if I'm wrong. Andrew, you guys are now over 6,000 apartment units spanning over 12 different projects. Do I have that right?
Andrew (49s): Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, thanks for having me. And yeah, no, that, that is right. You know, Tricon residential was, was one of the first groups back in 2016 to, to push into the purpose built rental apartment here in Toronto with scale and yeah, we've, we've now, you know, we're executing on the most active development pipeline in the city and, and continue to add projects.
Jesse (1m 11s): No, that's great to hear. Well, first of all, thank you for coming on. I'm glad that we've got a chance to sit down here, cuz there's a lot going on right now, as you know, and, and listeners know in the real estate space in general, I think whether, you know, you're in San Francisco, Toronto or Vancouver, there's, there's a lot going on economically and just from a policy standpoint with Canada in the us. So maybe for, for listeners that don't know your background, Andrew, maybe you could give us a little bit of a kind of primer on, you know, how you got into real estate at the beginning of your career and you know, how you've gone through the different permutations to get where you're at right now at trigon.
Andrew (1m 53s): Sure. Yeah. So I, you know, I grew up in Toronto, you know, my, you know, unlike a lot of people in real estate, I, I don't have a, a family business in, in real estate per se, but I, I always thought it, it, you know, represented this intersection of, you know, business and, you know, design and urbanization and, you know, people that, that I thought was profound and interesting. And so, you know, my, my summer jobs and undergrad were, were working at CBR E and then I, I was lucky enough to be hired from undergrad by Oxford properties.
I was the first hire they had as like, I forget the name. Now it's been several years, but you know, their first university intake hire. So, you know, spent the better part of a year there. And, you know, it was an amazing opportunity. You know, they have obviously got a very significant portfolio in Canada across, you know, different, different sectors as, as well as internationally. And, you know, had the opportunity to, to get, you know, Oxford was an investor with a company called Hines, very large Texas based developer owner operator of real estate and got to know the team at Hines through that channel.
And, you know, I was part of a, you know, asset management based rotational program when I, when I started at Oxford and, you know, knew I wanted to focus on, you know, acquisitions and, and doing deals and sort of the, the tip of the sphere of the business. So, you know, the market was hot back in 2006. Hines was raising a new fund over in Europe and was, was lucky enough to, to get hired, you know, and, and I moved over there in 2007. So I spent the better part of my twenties working over in Europe and, you know, that's something I'd highly recommend to, to anybody.
You know, I, I loved it, you know, professionally, it was, you know, the opportunity to see the world, you know, see different perspectives, you know, travel, et cetera. And on, on the personal side, you know, travel and seeing some pretty amazing places. So, you know, ultimately when I came back from Europe, you know, I, I realized that I, I knew probably more about European real estate and, and global real estate than I did, excuse me, C P I B Canada pension plan and, and Brookfield, when I was kind trying to come back to Toronto, just given their, their global remit.
And Brookfield's increasingly run outta New York and, you know, CPP, you know, was a great platform. So I spent several years there and, you know, I loved working there. I think it's got, you know, you see every large transaction on planet earth, incredibly high caliber group of people, but candidly, I missed, you know, being on the GP side, you know, the proximity to, to the real estate, you know, doing deals as opposed to, you know, more of the capital. And so I moved over to Tricon in 2016 and, and been here about six years now.
And yeah, no, it's, it's been great. I, I, you know, when I joined Tricon, we had three multi-family projects and, you know, grown it to, to 12 over the last few years. And, you know, we continue to execute, you know, on our growth ambitions, but also, you know, our development pipeline and ultimately creating, you know, a, a best in market brand focused on delivering, you know, exceptional resident experiences. And, you know, look, I think my time away really helped me bring a different perspective to what we do here at, at Tricon ultimately, you know, new class, a purpose-built rental is something that doesn't exist in Toronto people hadn't built it.
And I wouldn't say it, they hadn't built apartments generally since the 1970s. And, you know, there's an example here and there, but, you know, broadly speaking, it's a new product type. And so I think, you know, my experience in other markets has allowed me to bring things back and, and different ideas and whether it's, you know, our approach to amenities, our approach to leveraging, you know, mobile apps and technology, whether it's our approach to programming and, and just trying to borrow concepts that I think are, are elevate are done at a, you know, high level and in other places around the world, I think, you know, been able to import some of those perspectives back home.
Jesse (6m 3s): Yeah. I know that's a great summary for those that, you know, we, we have listeners probably 50 50 between Canadian and us listeners and every time I speak with multi-family, you know, whether they're general partners, LPs people investing in multifamily in the states, you, you know, you have that conversation with them about the fact that we have a very old apartment stock condos take up a lot of what we, you know, whether you call it the kind of shadow market for apartments or rentals, maybe you could give listeners a bit of an idea of, I, I guess your perspective on why that is, why, you know, we, you know, whether it's cultural, economic that we seem to not build departments or historically haven't built them at scale in general and, and what you think if you think that that is gonna change in the future.
Andrew (6m 50s): Perfect. Yeah. Look in many ways, that's, that's the, the big question, you know, where do you start on that one? I, I think that, you know, historically, you know, Canada has had, you know, a lot of foreign interest in, in owning real estate and capital flows. And I think that has allowed, you know, the market to build and develop spec condos, you know, so there's the capital for it. I think there's also a capital structure for it, you know, in Canada, developers can use condo deposits as, as equity.
And so, you know, when you compare condo versus, you know, rental business plans, it requires a lower upfront capital outlay by developers. You know, thirdly, I think, you know, candidly historically over time, just the revenue model has, has been there. I think it really only started to avail itself in, you know, roughly 2016 when you had this confluence of, you know, rental growth that, you know, started to, to put us, you know, above $3 a foot, you know, it was, you know, increasingly stretched for sale housing, you know, economics so more and more people became, you know, renters for, for longer, you know, very strong job growth in particular in the tech sector, you know, Toronto added the third most tech jobs in north America after Silicon valley and, and New York in 2016 through, you know, 2021.
So, you know, again, I think it's, it's rents, it's demand it's for sale housing and, and also low interest rates. I mean, I think, you know, rental is generally viewed as a yield investment. It's an income focused, you know, strategy that gets compared against, you know, government bonds and, and other types of income producing real estate. And I think, you know, just the spread to financing costs, you know, again, sort of 2016 aligned with some of those, you know, operating fundamentals really started to, to, you know, it, you know, create more institutional interest in the space.
Jesse (8m 55s): So for the, on the financing side, when it comes to the source of funds that, that Tricon uses to, you know, do these development projects, you mentioned being back on the GP side, is the structure that you typically use as a GPLP structure for most of the investments, or do you have, you know, contributed cap capital that's ready to go or asset specific? What does that look like for you guys?
Andrew (9m 20s): Yeah, yeah. Our, our growth primary growth vehicle today is indeed, you know, a GPLP structure. We've got some great partnerships with, you know, some fantastic and, and very well known, you know, large Canadian pension funds that, you know, are, are great partners of ours. So that's, you know, our primary growth vehicle, but we also have some strategic partners that we, you know, pursue opportunities with. And so, you know, ultimately, you know, you need to be flexible in, in rental in order to compete against some of the, you know, the condo developers.
So I think it's, you know, having vision on, on locations on the move, it's having long term permanent capital, and it's having, you know, a low cost of capital and all those things are important.
Jesse (10m 4s): So when you guys end up looking for, you know, you're trying to determine on different areas that you're invest in what's, you know what, what's at the top of the list, what's that process look like, you know, at the outset.
Andrew (10m 16s): Yeah. You know, look, it's, we obviously, you know, when we think about location, we have to be, you know, quite thoughtful, you know, our perspective is we have, you know, a buy box in, in, in Toronto that has, you know, different, different, you know, north, south, east, west bounds, and then sort of some special, you know, one off, you know, locations we'll take a rifle shot at based on, you know, a handful of, of supportive fundamentals.
But for us, you know, what we find is, you know, construction costs don't change a whole lot regardless of the location. And so, you know, for us, you know, it's really a function of being able to deliver the rents that we need to make our performers work. And so, you know, not withstanding that land flexes in order for us to hit our year to yield requirements, you know, we're quite focused on locations where we can, you know, earn the required rents. We need to hit our business plans.
You know, it's also site specific, you know, we've gotta look at things like, you know, proximity to transit. We've gotta look at proximity to, you know, major employment hubs, but it's also things like constructability, you know, is there heritage, how efficient is the parking garage? You know, how tight is the site, just from a, you know, construction schedule perspective. And we really have to feed all those things tripped through because, you know, there's not a, there's not a big margin for error in rental. And being able to execute quickly is extraordinarily important.
And, you know, I think beyond, you know, that sort of how we look at our sort of regular way market rate strategy, you know, one of the things we're incredibly proud of is, you know, continuing to be a partner of choice with, you know, various, various levels of government in, in creating mixed income communities that include, you know, significant amount of affordable housing. And so, you know, we will look outside our, our buy box at times where, you know, there's locations that I think because of, you know, the various dynamics in, in these, you know, public private partnerships, we're, we're able to, you know, get excited about, but it's, yeah, it's, it's a bit of, you know, there's, there's a lot of factors that go into site identification.
Jesse (12m 35s): So one thing that, you know, you're intimately familiar with just, just on the Canadian side and having global perspective, we had Richard Epstein from NYU. We had like a 45 minute interview talking about the history of rent, stabilized, rent, stabilization, and control in New York city. And I'd like to get your, just your perspective on if and how the policy, maybe the policy decisions, or some of the framework that we deal with say specifically in Ontario and Canada in general, how that affects, if it does the, the decisions that you make in terms of investment.
And, you know, when a, when a politician announces that they're gonna, you know, have any building built after this period, you know, is not gonna be subject to rent controller, rent stabilization, you know, you talk to some developers. And I think one of the concern is just the fact that, you know, different politicians come in, different politicians come in and, you know, some policy gets changed and there's an implication for developers. Is, is that just noise? You know, for you guys, you stick to the fundamentals or are these things that, you know, you actively are looking at and, and, and making sure that you're aware of
Andrew (13m 44s): No, that's great question. Look, I think political uncertainty is, is certainly a risk in, in, you know, I think purpose-built rental and, and rental housing broadly focused on the residential sector. It can become politicized. And I think, you know, this is a complicated question, getting housing built and affordable housing in particular and creating housing stability is incredibly important, but it's complicated.
And the feedback loops are, are real. And, you know, at the end of the day, all three levels of government, whether it's the federal governments, you know, national housing strategy, or it's the provincial, you know, more homes, more choice program, or the city of Toronto's 20, 20 to 2030 action plan, all of them state that increasing the supply of purpose built rental is a very important outcome and goal.
So how do we do that right now? One of the challenges with the higher construction cost environment, the higher interest rate environment is there are headwinds facing it. And, you know, you don't need me to tell you that there's a huge number of projects that are, you know, under strategic review right now, you know, pick up a newspaper that's anywhere from 10 to 20,000 units, depending on, you know, what you're reading and that's real. And I'm, you know, ultimately housing stability, you know, you're talking about rent control, like housing stability is incredibly important.
And I think what, you know, coming back to some of the previous discussions, almost every investor and capital partner and developer of purpose-built rental is a long-term owner and city builder. If they're just trying to make the quickest buck and, you know, flip projects like they would, they'd be building, they wouldn't be building rental. And so there's a level of stewardship that generally, I think comes with this business. Nobody everybody's focused on housing stability. Everybody is generally focused on trying to do the right thing. And I think, you know, rent control at historic levels, as a, for instance, when, you know, property taxes, insurance costs, staffing costs, you know, you have a huge number of expenses at the property level growing, you know, at or above, you know, current inflation levels, you know, creates creates pressure.
So you need to look at this confluence of factors, which is if purpose-built rental economics day one are super tight because of costs and interest rates. If, if you make the numerator on that yield calculation, you know, governed by, you know, a very tight rent control level, it makes a tough situation worse. And I think that is going to, you know, arrest any sort of these green shoots of new supply that we started to see, I'm not sitting here saying housing stability is an incredibly important, you know, I, I tell you that, you know, Tricon as an operator, we do, you know, we do not operate, we have no assets in markets with rent control, as of, for instance, like in Canada or the us, in every instance, we, as a steward of our properties, we self-govern renewal rates.
And we do that because we wanna promote housing stability. And I think, you know, all you need to, like, I think most rental owners act that way. In fact, it typically tends to be the one off, you know, condo owner who's renting out a unit that, you know, is, is the one who tends to get in the newspaper for increasing rents, meaningful amounts. And so, you know, I think about balance discussion on this with, with levels of government is, is super important. You know, taking these drastic measures is it, it does create uncertainty.
And so, you know, I think balance is important. And I think there's examples in the us and I'll point to California as, as a place that I think has, has struck a balance of a, you know, rent, rent control approach that I think all sides can be comfortable with. I think this hot potato of extremes in, in Canada's, you know, those big swings aren't good for anybody.
Jesse (17m 52s): Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more on that when it comes to the actual loans or financing. So maybe specifically on the debt structure, I mean, you might as well talk about it here. The, you know, a lot has changed over the last even six months, USA and Canada, when it comes to the policy interest rates and the overnight rate, this, you know, you, you mentioned getting into the industry, oh, 6 0 7. I remember first starting with, you know, investment real estate in oh 8 0 9. And it was definitely even at that time, 5%, five year fixed was historically low.
And then we started just going further and further down to zero. Now that interest rates are up and inflation, you know, the big question of it being transitory, not transitory, regardless of the, the view of that, it it's here. And interest rates have come up as a result of whatever reactions that, you know, policymakers are trying to, you know, trying to do to ameliorate some of this inflation that being said when it comes to your outlook and, you know, whether it's de-risking portfolios or being more prudent or careful when you're looking at, at new acquisitions, how, how has that, how's that impacted the way that you look at investments and, you know, from, you know, the proforma to, to just even more high level on a deal, you know, how does, how has that affected the decisions that, that your team makes?
Andrew (19m 18s): Yeah, look, you know, as I said earlier, I think, you know, development, or, you know, even investing in, in cash flowing assets tends to be, you know, a spread business. So if you're a pension fund and you can go buy, you know, a 10 year, you know, government of Canada bond with zero risk at, you know, 3% today, you know, historically, you know, I think real estate cap rates have been, you know, well, the way people really talk about is the spread to income producing real estate for development yield.
And when I started in, in, in this business, people were talking about, you know, 150 basis point spread is the right development spread to existing cap rates. And I think, you know, that's come down to clearly a hundred over the last, you know, about 10 years. I think the great question right now is with that base rate, shifting out will cap rates shift out and therefore should development yields shift out. And I think ultimately that's, that's sort of a global repricing exercise taking place right now across all hard assets.
That's not unique to real estate. You know, what I really like about purpose built rental is, you know, the low duration, you know, annual sort of inflation protection. I think, you know, office and retail are, are clearly having a hard time right now for a variety of reasons we don't need to get into, you know, I think the other historic, you know, darling, you know, people always talked about beds and sheds the last five, 10 years, and I think what's not withstanding the great fundamentals for, for industrial. Those tend to be, you know, longer term leases without, you know, annual inflation reset.
So those also behave much like bonds. I think you're not withstanding that, you know, what I'm hearing is in, you know, yields are, are holding pretty tight for, for purpose built rental in particular new purpose, built rental compared to bond yields. I think the reason for that is indeed, you know, the ability to get an annual inflation, you know, reset there's, you know, not many other real estate sectors. Can you, you know, reset other than hotels and apartments, can you, you know, reset your, your lease rates annually?
And so I think, you know, in a period of, of higher inflation, that level of protection or that growth, if you will, you know, is gonna hold, hopefully hold, hold yields in our, our sector pretty tight.
Jesse (21m 37s): Yeah. Yeah. And I think even that subcategory of, I'm starting to hear a lot more talk about student rentals, where it was pretty quiet for a while. And now, you know, that ability, I guess, to that point of being able to mark to market and, you know, I guess the other benefit with that is you, you avoid the, the existing existing built purpose-built that, you know, that would be captured by rent control. So in, in terms of your outlook right now on the, you know, one thing that we're carrying constantly, it doesn't matter if it's industrial office multi res is construction and supply chain issues.
Just the challenge of getting people to, to be able to do the work, getting it done in a timely fashion. I mean, I'm sure it has to, to some extent, but in terms of your business, how has that impacted, you know, what, what the team has done and, and, you know, are there strategies that you're using to, you know, to basically deal with those risks going forward?
Andrew (22m 37s): Yeah, look, everything is harder. Like everything is harder on execution. It's turnaround times on permits, it's zoning, it's, you know, the city of Toronto's and they got, you know, 20 open spots right now in their planning department. You know, that, that is illustrative of, you know, just the need for, for, you know, more expediency, you know, we've had some labor unrest this year, we've had a drywall strike. We've had, you know, several, you know, forming strike.
We've had several strikes in the market. We've had, you know, COVID impacting productivity. We've got obviously, you know, an, you know, a labor base that's getting older and older, you know, projects are getting, you know, more and more complicated. They're taller, they're on tighter sites. You know, the supply chain is, is disrupted. You know, one, you know, the fact that Toronto has 200 cranes and Seattle has the next most cranes in north America with 49.
That's an illustration of, of how stretched many of our trades are. And so as I'll say it again, like everything's harder, everything is hands on, very hands on. And so, you know, what are we doing differently? You know, on the, you know, tendering an award side, it's, you know, really focusing on, on trades, we've done business with in the past, you know, people we know who can perform, who can perform people. We have a, you know, accountability based relationship with, you know, it's thinking about incentives and ways to, to make sure that, you know, people actually hit hit dates, but it's just a hyper level of vigilance.
You know, I think for the last 30 years, the, you know, you could generally trust, you know, the level of production. And I think in the last two years, it's everything is trust, but verify now, unfortunately,
Jesse (24m 35s): Yeah. Trust, but verify, I like that the, in terms of the, you know, when you do acquisitions for land and development right now, what does that, what does that, you know, for somebody that might not know the Toronto area in terms of competition for these type of sites and what is that, you know, world looking like right now. And then, I guess maybe just as a, as a caveat, if you could add a little to, you know, your view right now on zoning and, and you know, how that, how zoning and future zoning plays into the decisions you make or, or how you go about purchasing, you know, purchasing land or development sites.
Andrew (25m 11s): Yeah. It's funny on a no names basis. We, we had one of the top investment sales brokers and their team come into our office two weeks ago, cuz we'd asked for a land. We asked for a market update on what's going on in the land market. And they sat down, got comfortable, looked at me and said, if you're thinking I'm gonna pull a presentation outta my, my briefcase, you're wrong. Cuz there is there isn't one cuz nothing's happening. And you know, look, I think in any period of uncertainty, like the one we're in right now, just based on, you know, stock market, you know, global turbulence in the political environment and you know, higher interest rates, the bit ask spread between, you know, what buyers and sellers expect widens.
And so, you know, there's very few land deals in the market right now. And those that are in the market, you know, gen generally tend to be like quietly marketed. Cause you know, folks on this, you know, it's just not a great time to be exiting and people are trying to do things more quietly. So it's hard to, to you asked about right now, I think that's a reality. I think sellers think, you know, it's sort of November of last year interest rate environment in stock market.
Whereas sellers all are pointing to the stock market down 20, 30% and doubling interest rates and you know, construction costs going up a point a month and saying, no, this is the price and sellers are hopeful that it's last year. So that is this a, you know, for freezing, if you will look, I think, you know, Canada tends to be a market that is defined by, you know, long term, permanent capital. You don't have as many closed-ended funds that have these required exits. So I think things will move slowly here.
We'll see. I think there's no shortage of capital in the system and you know, interest in, you know, big successful and, and you know, sophisticated groups who wanna do more. So I think, you know, if there, when there's some movement on price, deals will deals will happen, but it's a bit of a stare down right now.
Jesse (27m 23s): Yeah. I, I mean, I think that's across the board, we're seeing it a definitely, you know, industrial office there's there's this disconnect and you know, whether it takes a year for people to, to kind of for the dust to settle and, and those spreads to, to get a little bit more narrow, I guess, remains to be seen. Awesome. Well, Andrea, I wanna be mindful of the time we have three. Well, we have four layup questions. We ask every guest at the end of the show, but before we do, before we go there, if people are interested in, you know, what Tricon is doing any information as to the projects or just in general with the company, what's the, what's the best place to send them.
Andrew (28m 1s): Yeah. I mean go to our website, Tricon residential.com and click on the Canadian multifamily links. You can follow us on Instagram, Tricon residential to living or, or on LinkedIn, Tricon residential as well.
Jesse (28m 18s): Awesome. All right. So four easy questions for you here, Andrew, somebody coming into our industry, your on mentorship and you know, where, you know, whether it's on the, in this case, the development side or acquisition side, you know, what, what would you, what advice would you give them at at kind of the early stage in the career?
Andrew (28m 38s): Oh boy, I think, you know, it's funny on our desktops at work, we have these three, three lines that say, ask questions, apply common sense and have fun. And I, I always think those are, you know, perfect in, in some ways for no matter what age of your, your career you're at. I think asking questions is, is a virtue. I think, you know, real estate tends to be kind of a learned industry. It's I don't wanna say more opaque, but it's, you know, it's, it's, you know, a little more niche and I think just getting exposure, listening, asking questions, you know, I think a lot of young people, actually people of any age, they don't, people are at times hesitant to asking questions.
And I, I always think that that demonstrates engagement. So I didn't, you know, ask lots of questions, be curious and, and read lots.
Jesse (29m 31s): I like that we have an, a new associate that started and we, we mandated, which I hate using that word when it comes to top down. But basically say, you know, a few times a week, we need you to ask these questions, cuz so many times in our industry, you have somebody that a few months go by, they nod their head and then you find out they, they didn't know the answer to something where it, you know, whether it was too embarrassed to ask or if you kind of force 'em like, listen, there's no bad questions. Just ask them. It goes a long way, something right now, whether it's at Tricon or your, your kind of your personal career, what's been something, one of the bigger or biggest challenges that you have seen, you know, whether that's project specific, you know, moving from, you know, one aspect of your career to, to the other, what would you know, what would that be for you?
Andrew (30m 19s): Biggest challenges. Interesting. Two, come to mind. I'll I'll I'll give you the first one cuz the second one's a longer answer. I think knowing when to ask for help, I think in our industry, like in particular, on the development side, I think a lot of, you know, folks on the construction side and project execution side, you know, it tends to be a manly Brawny. I can run through a wall, yell and scream.
I can fix it. Well, like at the end of the day building skyscrapers, you know, you've got two, 300 men on site every day, you've got, you know, a site, super, you know, a project manager. Like if, if that system isn't working in terms of coordination meetings and you know, having a plan and accountability and transparency and, and you know, it's just not gonna work. And I, I think in particular with, you know, people on site and in our industry getting like younger and younger and more and more inexperienced it's in, you know, this notion of like, or this concept of like act active inertia of just like, oh, we're just gonna, like, it's just, it's gonna keep going this way.
Cause you know, we're just gonna yell and scream and you know, it'll change cuz I'm yelling and screaming. Like I don't find that's working. And I, I think that, you know, there's a lot of projects out there that are delayed and I think, you know, what, what, what we need as an industry to do is, you know, need to find a way to partner, you know, folks who, you know, have been doing this for 30 years with, with guys, you know, driving outcomes on site versus kind of colliding with them and partnering better and just trying to do things differently and, and asking for help and people being open about that.
Cause you know, I think the, the old way of, you know, yelling and screaming to try to get things done is, is not work. And I think, you know, a lot of projects need, need help these days.
Jesse (32m 25s): Yeah. That makes sense. A resource podcast or book that you're reading right now, you could recommend to listeners,
Andrew (32m 32s): Okay, this is a curve ball answer. My favorite. I, I, you know, there's lots of good real estate books. I just read the new Kings of New York by the real deal, which, which is pretty good if you, if you're interested in, you know, these sorta, you know, big rise and fall type stories in New York, but my favorite book. So I have a colleague who used to be an, a Boeing aircraft engineer and he told me to read this book called skunkworks, which is all about Lockheed Martin, who is who as many people would know have, have created some of the most prolific advanced fighter jets and aircraft in the world.
And when I read this book, all I could think about was real estate because it's, how does this, you know, smaller scrappy company in Burbank, California with like one 30th, the budgets much smaller teams than, you know, Boeing, Airbus and all these other, you know, global aeronautics companies, how do they continue to create like steal fighters and F 20 twos and how, how, how does this company keep doing it? And it's, it's all about like project teams and focus and, and accountability.
And so I, I read this book skunkworks, which is the name of Lockheed Martin's, you know, super secretive aircraft development area. Cuz I happen to be a bit of a military junkie. But to me this was like the best book you can read about real estate development. Cuz it tells the story of how this underdog is knocked the cover off the ball.
Jesse (33m 59s): I like it right on. All right. Last question. From our Bloomberg friends, masters in business, first car make and model
Andrew (34m 7s): One more time.
Jesse (34m 8s): First car make and model.
Andrew (34m 10s): Oh boy. I'm so boring. I, so I got a Volvo XC 60. Oh my gosh. Like 2015. I, I had a Bernie's mountain dog, so I needed a big car. It's not very exciting. Practical,
Jesse (34m 29s): Practical. I like it. We've we've had, we've had quite a, a medley of different cars on here, right on. Okay. Sweet. Well, Andrew, I really appreciate you coming on. You mentioned the website Trilon I'm sure Google search as well and, and anybody interested can, can find you that way. Yeah, I, again, thank you for coming on. My guest today has been Andrew joiner, Andrew. Thanks for being part of working capital.
Andrew (34m 55s): Thanks Jesse. Appreciate the discussion.
Jesse (35m 4s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you like the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.